Where should Herefordshire Council make cuts? It's up to you (From Hereford Times)

Where should Herefordshire Council make cuts? It's up to you

7:00am Thursday 10th January 2013 in News By Bill Tanner

Council leader Councillor John Jarvis told the Hereford Times that “everything is on the table” over savings

FACING a huge shortfall in day-to-day service funding for the year ahead, Herefordshire Council is today inviting the public to make its own cuts.

Council leader Councillor John Jarvis told the Hereford Times that “everything is on the table” over savings in an equally unprecedented consultation affecting every man, woman and child in the county.

A shortfall of £10m is confirmed with the numbers now crunched on the council’s 2013/14 budget. The full figure actually reaches £16m mitigated by £4.5m in savings identified so far and a proposed council tax rise of 1.9 per cent that raises £1.5m ringfenced for the ever spiralling cost of adult social care.

That leaves a £10m shortfall made up of the £5.5m cut in funding from central government previously reported by the Hereford Times and £4.5m from other external sources.

The council has to have a balanced budget projected by the end of the month to meet the deadline for council tax setting.

Hereford Times readers can email their suggestions and opinions to yoursay@herefordtimes.com, comment via the dedicated Facebook page (YourCommunityYourSay) or contact the council via Twitter (@haveyoursay_).

Comments(110)

Herefordian says...
8:10am Thu 10 Jan 13

FACING a huge shortfall in day-to-day service funding for the year ahead, Herefordshire Council is today inviting the public to make its own cuts.

Council leader Councillor John Jarvis told the Hereford Times that “everything is on the table” over savings in an equally unprecedented consultation affecting every man, woman and child in the county.

Extra Money for ESG, Rockfield DIY, Here'we'Can Signs and you ask us to make cutbacks. What a bloody joker!

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courtesycall says...
10:19am Thu 10 Jan 13

what about 'everything under the table', plenty of savings and cuts to be made there, methinks!

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Roger J says...
10:24am Thu 10 Jan 13

Why don't you try looking in house Mr Jarvis at things like non essential chief executives & other deadwood non jobs,sell off non essential buildings & abandon street paving plans etc, the list is endless.

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smurfster says...
10:39am Thu 10 Jan 13

How about starting with the pointless "Herefordshire Matters" magazine?! I'd rather have kept my bin bags than have no choice in receiving this pointless waste of self promotion. It's not as if they're short of customers??!

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Biomech says...
11:15am Thu 10 Jan 13

This is a common technique used by management/leaders when they want someone else to do the work for them because;

A: They don't know what to do
B: They don't want the responsibility and can blame "us" when things go wrong.

Feedback in management is a great process and very useful - but management need to listen to it, not select only the parts that they like, ignoring any issues.

Which is what will happen here.

Next will be the false democracy. Give us 2 options and make out that it's a choice. Like the whole PCC fiasco.

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swampy says...
11:37am Thu 10 Jan 13

Hereford Council are a complete joke, I thought that they could'nt possibly get any worst, but they do. I feel ashamed to admit that I live here, we have become a joke. The car parking charges, the signs, the pay that the executives get, the entertaining budget for Hereford City Council, they are all on the gravy train in various forms. Wasting money and then referring it back to us the public who are funding it. In any other business they would be bankrupt by now.

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Herefordian07 says...
11:43am Thu 10 Jan 13

We could save millions if the council staff didn't have all the perks and trappings that public sector employees constantly enjoy, index linked pensions, early retirement packages and let's not forget the final salary scheme and bonus pay off! It's about time they looked inwards and cut the tree from the top downwards, would we miss them if they weren't there? Yes of course we would, where would we get our laughs from otherwise.

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Biomech says...
12:06pm Thu 10 Jan 13

Great analogy Herefordian07.

If they cut from the top of the tree, it can be regrown/rebuilt.

Cut from the bottom and EVERYTHING falls down.

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TwoWheelsGood says...
12:35pm Thu 10 Jan 13

So they're going to carefully listen to all our comments, cost them all and present a balanced budget, all before the deadline of the end of the month are they? More spin and more lies from this Council's leadership - it's all they know. Even a cursory glance at comments here over the last 3 months would have shown a long list of where savings could be made. They don't need to 'consult' - its bleedin' obvious and its their job - stop wasting our money and just get on with it. We'll give our feedback at the next elections.

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Biomech says...
12:52pm Thu 10 Jan 13

Evidently it WAS their job, now it's ours.

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littlewhitebull says...
12:57pm Thu 10 Jan 13

I think this story will probably be the most commented story for a very long time!
All the posters so far have made complete sense. Such a pity this council does not possess any common sense whatsoever.
Cut the Herefordshire Matters magazine, cut out all bottled water, cut councillors' allowances/expenses, release the expensive staff who are not needed, stop using overpaid outside consultants, and above all: stop wasting money on overly-expensive websites, 'Here You Can' signs, and all the other unnecessary projects that have been mentioned on this website, and the Readers' Letters section in the Hereford Times.
If Mr. Jarvis does not know where to cut to make the books balance then he has not been listening to local taxpayers, and neither has he been reading their letters and postings. And if he has not been listening/reading he should quit.
My apologies for ranting - but I am very angry at what is happening.

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Werintrouble says...
2:28pm Thu 10 Jan 13

Hello. Im a new Poster. I've come to join in your fight with the Council. Where have all the usual Posters gone?
I'd like to see the Council stop pretending they listen and just do it.
The waste of money is scandalous and highly irresponsible.

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Herefordian07 says...
3:09pm Thu 10 Jan 13

I think we should adopt the French position on cuts, start with the useless leaders and let the people run the show, "Hark! I hear the tumbels coming" anybody got a spare guillotine.

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Herefordian07 says...
3:10pm Thu 10 Jan 13

Oops spelling error, should be tumbrels, my aging brain is slower than my fingers. Apologies.

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wyesider says...
3:23pm Thu 10 Jan 13

I totally agree with all that has been said on this subject. There is little more to add to what has already been suggested. Littlewhitebull stated that if Councillor Jarvis has not got the message yet from all the letters, postings, etc., he should resign - don't hold your breath - leopards don't change their spots. As Biomech states, he is now trying to shift the blame onto the people in the hope that they come with suggestions for cuts which he cannot, or rather WILL NOT, be implemented. I agree with Biomech. Jarvis obviously has not got a clue how to solve the problem.
Herefordian07 suggested cutting at the top of the tree - the best way to start, in my opinion. If Jarvis hasn't got a few ideas from these postings alone, then he is beyond hope.

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courtesycall says...
4:54pm Thu 10 Jan 13

If we adopt the French position on cuts there would no sheep left in the county and the fire brigade would be demanding more money from the council.

The day of reckoning has arrived. The council should be assessed like any other business and for its accounts and accounting practises to be scrutinised. The starting point should be for the council to come clean and open the books to the public, disclose the income and expenditure, so that we can see precisely what is spent on what and by whom.

Having identified precisely where all the money comes from and where it goes, suggestions from the public on how best to balance the books would be more useful than us being asked to come up with a load of suggestions when really we've little or no idea what's what.

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WYSIATI says...
5:12pm Thu 10 Jan 13

Shame that the Times did not take the opportunity to lay out a bit more of the information (courtesycall has it right - if you don't actually have the details of where the money comes from and where it goes you can only deal in platitudes, guesses and assumptions - spiced with a bit of ranting and Pickles' style apple pie and motherhood).

What you also need is a clear outline of what the obligations are - what services have to be provided by law and what are the implications of possible cuts and changes in services.

The article gives a flavour of what we're looking at here - £16M shortfall, already proposed £4.5M of cuts - that's not small beer by anyone's standards and it's certainly not going to be met by stopping the biscuits (if there are any).

I can't keep the two ideas of cutting the head off the snake (is that what they say when they send in the drones to knock out the leaders because organisations crumble without them) and cutting the tree from the top.

Nor do I think that stripping out the contractual agreements such as pensions unilaterally are the answer - not only has there been a new agreement on pensions that increase contributions and reduce benefits with an increase in pension age but the local govt scheme is almost unique for public service pensions in that it is funded - ie there is money there to meet liabilities - unlike many (MPs for example) where future costs are to be met out of taxation some time in the future.

Make no mistake I want services to be efficient and budgets to be respected - but we get nowhere by pretending either that the odd idea - sometimes good, often uninformed by more than prejudice and pretending that running public services is the same as running a business - it fundamentally is not.

The Govt is forcing through serious changes to systems that have been developed over decades and subject to local democracy (and if you don't like what you've got vote or volunteer - it's open to all - though you may need an independent income in future to go with your thick skin).

If there was an easy solution and a no pain option don't you think someone would have spotted it?

Shame that the Times did not take the opportunity to lay out a bit more of the information (courtesycall has it right - if you don't actually have the details of where the money comes from and where it goes you can only deal in platitudes, guesses and assumptions - spiced with a bit of ranting and Pickles' style apple pie and motherhood). What you also need is a clear outline of what the obligations are - what services have to be provided by law and what are the implications of possible cuts and changes in services. The article gives a flavour of what we're looking at here - £16M shortfall, already proposed £4.5M of cuts - that's not small beer by anyone's standards and it's certainly not going to be met by stopping the biscuits (if there are any). I can't keep the two ideas of cutting the head off the snake (is that what they say when they send in the drones to knock out the leaders because organisations crumble without them) and cutting the tree from the top. Nor do I think that stripping out the contractual agreements such as pensions unilaterally are the answer - not only has there been a new agreement on pensions that increase contributions and reduce benefits with an increase in pension age but the local govt scheme is almost unique for public service pensions in that it is funded - ie there is money there to meet liabilities - unlike many (MPs for example) where future costs are to be met out of taxation some time in the future. Make no mistake I want services to be efficient and budgets to be respected - but we get nowhere by pretending either that the odd idea - sometimes good, often uninformed by more than prejudice and pretending that running public services is the same as running a business - it fundamentally is not. The Govt is forcing through serious changes to systems that have been developed over decades and subject to local democracy (and if you don't like what you've got vote or volunteer - it's open to all - though you may need an independent income in future to go with your thick skin). If there was an easy solution and a no pain option don't you think someone would have spotted it? WYSIATI

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probono says...
5:14pm Thu 10 Jan 13

Members expenses could go, and perhaps stopping them using car parks for free when not on Council business.

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WYSIATI says...
5:19pm Thu 10 Jan 13

So the council should take cuts and the staff there have their pay frozen for several years - apparently it's a different story for MPs - http://www.bbc.co.uk
/news/uk-politics-20
978487

Do as we say not as we do?

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megilleland says...
5:38pm Thu 10 Jan 13

From the Council's website:
http://www.herefords
hire.gov.uk/council_
gov_democracy/news/6
3030.asp

To ensure that residents’ views on our savings proposals are taken into consideration by cabinet when it meets to agree the budget proposals in February, the consultation will be available for three weeks from Thursday 10 January to Thursday 31 January and residents can have their say using any of the following methods:

Online
http://www.herefords
hire.gov.uk/survey/b
udget_consultation/

Twitter
https://twitter.com/
haveyoursay_

Facebook
https://www.facebook
.com/YourCommunityYo
urSay

For any queries or to request a copy of the consultation in an alternative format such as a paper copy or a different language, please contact Herefordshire Council on 01432 383568.

To find out more about the consultation and the savings proposals, please visit www.herefordshire.go
v.uk/yourcommunityyo
ursay.

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Biomech says...
5:50pm Thu 10 Jan 13

"If you don't actually have the details of where the money comes from and where it goes you can only deal in platitudes, guesses and assumptions "

All of which can be altered to your taste through spin - even very basic spin.

Hard expenditure figures, however, cannot.

Which is why they are going with the former

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courtesycall says...
6:08pm Thu 10 Jan 13

I have completed the on-line consultation and added comment.
I urge others to do as well, and add their own comment. I do wonder what good it's likely to do: I suspect the council doesn't have what it takes to be really ruthless. Even in a poor county which is what Herefordshire is I think it's perfectly possible to allocate resources to the most important services such as children and the elderly without making that much difference elsewhere. Let the private sector pick up the tab for tourism, leisure and the arts for example. As for councillors expenses and staff costs, I think the staffing numbers should be thoroughly reviewed, staff salaries and wages increased by a pound or so an hour - you gotta keep those on the front line happy - and councillors expenses, at county and local level withdrawn for at least a year as a gesture of goodwill for the mess they've got us in.

http://www.herefords
hire.gov.uk/survey/b
udget_consultation/

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Biomech says...
6:15pm Thu 10 Jan 13

Done.

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AylestoneVoice says...
7:35pm Thu 10 Jan 13

I agree that this is just passing the buck to us. However the fact of the matter is that the Council is in serious financial meltdown. The biggest contributor to this is adult social care - over half of the 130 million budget. They are over 5 million overspent this year alone. I believe this is caused by poor management control and the lack of responsibility but getting rid of a few staff wont fix it. What we have at the moment is that all services except adult care are being cut to the bone - and you get a much poorer service.
The question is where do we want our money spent and really should the Council just be a social care organisation and little else. The cutting of a few jobs won't fix it. So perhaps we should tell them to stop any spending on cycling provision or should we stop adult care or checking food premises or promoting Herefordshire. We could tell them to stop putting money into leisure but then the price for swimming of nuse of leisure centres would increase. That is the choice. Of course Bobby47, 2WG or any of you can stand for Council in a years time and put it right. Sometimes it is easy to sit behind a keyboard?

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Werintrouble says...
8:05pm Thu 10 Jan 13

And where is King Bobby? I've been reading his garbage for months and was looking forward to being with him on this forum.

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PaulCa says...
8:47pm Thu 10 Jan 13

Just checking in from Wirral. Here, we have to reduce the budget by a staggering £103 million over the next 3 years.

This year's target is to reduce it by £39m. A tall order. We've followed the same path of putting it out to a so-called public consultation (dubbed "What Really Matters"). As mentioned above, many questions are a cynically presented false choice between two carefully selected alternatives. We'll be blamed when it goes wrong.

So far, this has been an absolute PR disaster. The relatively new CEO, sent in last September to steady the ship appears to be aiming for the nearest iceberg instead.

Recently, he made noises about "spending less on staff in order to reduce the impact of the cuts on our most vulnerable", before blowing £30,000 on refurbishing his new offices.

Next was an FoI request made, in which they said they'd spent £5,700 on a video starring the CEO and leader, presenting these issues to the public.

It turned out they'd lied and the real figure was around £15,000 including VAT.

The leader's name is Graham Burgess and he's an ex-UNISON full time officer..... yes, I know.

The UNISON reputation goes before it and I can vouch that in many cases they have become a formidable enemy within - a fact often unknown to the members they are supposed to represent - until they need their support and are dropped like a stone.

A situation far more dangerous than facing an 'honest' enemy who you acknowledge, face up to and prepare to do battle with.

This one is 'on your side', but will one day shoot you in the back, and rifle through your pockets before defecting to the other side.

They and management tend to play golf together a lot, discussing 'problem people'.

I don't know about your top man, but I've no reason to suspect this is not pretty much the course followed by our present CEO, seizing opportunities and 'moving forward' into a personally brighter future for himself.

Just checking in from Wirral. Here, we have to reduce the budget by a staggering £103 million over the next 3 years. This year's target is to reduce it by £39m. A tall order. We've followed the same path of putting it out to a so-called public consultation (dubbed "What Really Matters"). As mentioned above, many questions are a cynically presented false choice between two carefully selected alternatives. We'll be blamed when it goes wrong. So far, this has been an absolute PR disaster. The relatively new CEO, sent in last September to steady the ship appears to be aiming for the nearest iceberg instead. Recently, he made noises about "spending less on staff in order to reduce the impact of the cuts on our most vulnerable", before blowing £30,000 on refurbishing his new offices. Next was an FoI request made, in which they said they'd spent £5,700 on a video starring the CEO and leader, presenting these issues to the public. It turned out they'd lied and the real figure was around £15,000 including VAT. The leader's name is Graham Burgess and he's an ex-UNISON full time officer..... yes, I know. The UNISON reputation goes before it and I can vouch that in many cases they have become a formidable enemy within - a fact often unknown to the members they are supposed to represent - until they need their support and are dropped like a stone. A situation far more dangerous than facing an 'honest' enemy who you acknowledge, face up to and prepare to do battle with. This one is 'on your side', but will one day shoot you in the back, and rifle through your pockets before defecting to the other side. They and management tend to play golf together a lot, discussing 'problem people'. I don't know about your top man, but I've no reason to suspect this is not pretty much the course followed by our present CEO, seizing opportunities and 'moving forward' into a personally brighter future for himself. PaulCa

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probono says...
10:51pm Thu 10 Jan 13

It must cost time and money for us to have to keep doing FOI to get basic information out of the Council, but they still try to refuse, leave it as long as possible and then feed it out a bit at a time. And all for something which was so basic it should always have been in the public domain. So why the secrecy if there is nothing to hide ?
Staff are being asked to take redundancy and if they leave it until next month to ask, the terms will not be as good they are being told. Why? Its the workers who are being pushed out, not the fat cats, but the frontline services. And of course the Councillors are not offering to do the decent thing and reduce or even return their allowances and expenses. Perhaps we should organise a work party to go and inspect the Councillors expenses as they are quite illuminating. Meals on the rates, journeys which are dubious if compared to train times, very long distances to places like Birmingham - all agreed by the people checking them and paid out. So very wrong.

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littlewhitebull says...
10:22am Fri 11 Jan 13

PaulCa from the Wirral makes an interesting contribution. It seems that even in the Wirral, where enormous 'savings' are planned some members of that council will continue to spend on frivolous projects - no surprise there many of us will conclude. You only have to read the Taxpayers Alliance website to see that such waste is of epidemic proportions.
Does anybody know where the £8 million for the proposed new archives building will come from?

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fordshire77 says...
10:59am Fri 11 Jan 13

Without doubt Jarvis is clueless and I’m sure he would be quite happy to be paid off with a 6 figure sum and a full pension as a thank you for all his hard work! whilst the rest of them (HC) just stand open mouthed waiting to be spoon feed the next load of c**p to be digested and twisted then passed on to the tax payers! whilst leaving us running round like headless chickens wondering how the hell are we going to get out of this mess! inevitably I’m worried to the future of the small hospitals as that is the only place where there seems to be any money, the closure of a hospital or a couple of surgery’s and there would be 10's of thousands to be saved at the cost of a few lives.....what’s a few lives worth to HC..... not much I’m guessing!
King Bobby47 where are you??

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GDJ says...
11:02am Fri 11 Jan 13

Our MP, Jesse Norman, has gone a bit quiet.

He was always very, very happy to be photographed shaking hands with people at the opening of things. Perhaps he'd also be happy to be photographed closing the doors for the final time at facilities like Children's Centres and libraries as they get closed down. Or at least to state what his government has in mind to be cut as it is they that have cut the grant.

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Hereford Common Sense says...
11:21am Fri 11 Jan 13

Can I also remind people that the word Leisure may entice thoughts similar to "past times", "for pleasure", "for enjoyment" alone. Although part of the case, this is of course inaccurate when you consider what our Leisure Centres and halo offer. Partnerships with NHS/GP surgeries when people have had a medical episode and need to consider prevention, giving up smoking schemes, teaching people to swim, providing affordable access to a healthier lifestyle. This is just some of the bigger picture and its important to consider these aspects(The bigger picture, as its not the same as cutting back on the local panto venue/just a past time at all.

We can get angry with our counsellors for spending the money on large decorative bulls, maybe a new logo for Herefordshire (what really was wrong with the apple?),uneccessary Magazines that could have appeared online rather than inprint, etc etc. Its our right to hold councils accountable for spending. However, this is a sad time where people are asked to decide on whether a subsidised bus to a local school is more important than a heart attack victim who requires preventative assistance.

Consultation? Passing the buck on to you (the public), so that you (the public) get the blame for what is lost isnt probably the most honourable behaviour.

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WYSIATI says...
3:18pm Fri 11 Jan 13

probono - good point about FOI - perhaps if less time was spent by staff digging out papers, emails, correspondence and checking, assembling and responding to many spurious FOI requests there would be some more money and time to spend on actually providing public services.

Probity and integrity yes - micromanagement of every single last thing - a recipe for huge cost, total paralysis and no services, if you really think that's justified by finding a journey you think might not have been necessary I think that the time and attention of key staff could be better spent.

If we collectively cause the paralysis that's our fault - not theirs

fordhsire77 - you may have a point about the qualities of Jarvis - but isn't he a councillor - can you back up the six figure pay off comment and full pension?

GDJ - love it - get the MPs on the spot - Bill Wiggin and Jesse Norman - presumably they both support the severe cuts over many years and the damage to services that will flow from that - not sure they'll be too keen on closing ceremonies but it would be poignant.

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B the B says...
3:55pm Fri 11 Jan 13

You can blame the local council all you like but it is the Government that is causing all this debate by not giving our council enough money.

The greedy pigs in London now seem to want a pay increase of 32% lets not forget that. Lets ask our MPs are they for that increase while others dont get any at all or indeed are being made redundant.

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Biomech says...
3:59pm Fri 11 Jan 13

You're absolutely right, it's the government who are forcing them to drink bottled water, not pay for parking, lodge in 4-5 star hotels instead of a travellodge and have meetings at the golf course.....

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B the B says...
4:12pm Fri 11 Jan 13

Of course there are always savings to be made. And you are right, the government is in part responsible as all these wanna be politicians see that they do it in London so why dont they do it here.

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courtesycall says...
4:19pm Fri 11 Jan 13

The underlying problem, as I see it, is a conflict in ideology: whether the economy should be best run on capitalist or socialist lines is not the the point: the point is that chopping and changing the government every 5 years leads to the party in power spending the first 2 years clearing up the mess from the previous administration, the 3rd year implementing the policies in its manifesto, and the 4th and 5th years trying to find ways to bribe voter to re-elect it.

I’m not suggesting the 5-year election should be any longer, politicians must be accountable and in a democratic monarchy voting (and striking) is the means, but I do think the UK should decide what it honesty wants and stick to it.

A consequence of the conflict is the public sector has been for so long intent upon competing with the private sector. There are now so many duplicate and overlapping services that there is simply not enough money to support the public sector in sprawling and undisciplined way it has grown to become. Cuts and savings will only make a difference if accompanied by a fundamental shift in attitude. Otherwise all we’ll get is the experience of being worse off with nothing to show for it.

The public sector is funded by the private sector. That is what our tax is used for and of course it is essential in the redistribution of the money the government receives for the poor and needy to be included but not if the cost of maintaining and running the public sector is out of kilter with what the country as a whole can afford.

The obvious solution would be for public sector and the private sector to join forces and for the private sector to take charge, rather than have the public sector dictate terms as it does now That would remove unnecessary costs and improve efficiencies, and go a long way towards creating a united country with a clearly defined range of objectives, rather than an ideologically divided nation as now.

As someone else has said, if the council were a private sector business it would've gone broke by now. However, if the council were to starting thinking and acting like a private sector business, instead of imagining a bottomless-purse and that the money is bound to come from somewhere eventually, then at every man, woman, and child in Herefordshire would feel that the council had at last come to its senses and be worth fighting for.

The underlying problem, as I see it, is a conflict in ideology: whether the economy should be best run on capitalist or socialist lines is not the the point: the point is that chopping and changing the government every 5 years leads to the party in power spending the first 2 years clearing up the mess from the previous administration, the 3rd year implementing the policies in its manifesto, and the 4th and 5th years trying to find ways to bribe voter to re-elect it. I’m not suggesting the 5-year election should be any longer, politicians must be accountable and in a democratic monarchy voting (and striking) is the means, but I do think the UK should decide what it honesty wants and stick to it. A consequence of the conflict is the public sector has been for so long intent upon competing with the private sector. There are now so many duplicate and overlapping services that there is simply not enough money to support the public sector in sprawling and undisciplined way it has grown to become. Cuts and savings will only make a difference if accompanied by a fundamental shift in attitude. Otherwise all we’ll get is the experience of being worse off with nothing to show for it. The public sector is funded by the private sector. That is what our tax is used for and of course it is essential in the redistribution of the money the government receives for the poor and needy to be included but not if the cost of maintaining and running the public sector is out of kilter with what the country as a whole can afford. The obvious solution would be for public sector and the private sector to join forces and for the private sector to take charge, rather than have the public sector dictate terms as it does now That would remove unnecessary costs and improve efficiencies, and go a long way towards creating a united country with a clearly defined range of objectives, rather than an ideologically divided nation as now. As someone else has said, if the council were a private sector business it would've gone broke by now. However, if the council were to starting thinking and acting like a private sector business, instead of imagining a bottomless-purse and that the money is bound to come from somewhere eventually, then at every man, woman, and child in Herefordshire would feel that the council had at last come to its senses and be worth fighting for. courtesycall

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Werintrouble says...
4:39pm Fri 11 Jan 13

In days gone by, public sector pay was low and the inducement to enroll with the Council or any other Public Service was the promise of a job for life and a generous pension.
The madness set in when Labour came to power and they recognised the low pay issue and pay rises were awarded recognising this very issue.
Then Labour threw lots of money at public services and the Council set out upon a job and wealth creation excercise. Not only was the lowly admin clerk given a huge pay rise but Departments were created to recognise a growing chain of command.
First came the Team Leaders who got paid more than the Admin Clerk. Then came the Supervisor to make sure the Team Leader was doing their job. Then it was the Manager and then the Director of the service.
Then all of a sudden it was, 'we've got to pay the best to get the best from the private sector.
Then the madness escalated to the point where public services became a monster requiring more and more shifting of paper work, red tape, rules and regulations. Anything would do to keep the monster fed and all the time their wage and pension burden fell on our shoulders.
So much so, that now, some fifteen years later the lowly clerk who was on around 9k a year is drawing a salary three or four times that figure and this lowly clerk is at the bottom of the huge bloated food chain that is our Council.
This tree of wealth needs some chopping and as sad as it is, many good people have to lose their jobs.
Unless that is done, as the King would say, we are doomed.

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BenQ75 says...
4:42pm Fri 11 Jan 13

Lets think about where money could be saved...

Hereford Council:

CEO Salary £183,724
Deputy Chief Executive £130,000

hmmmmmmmmmmmm tricky!

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littlewhitebull says...
5:12pm Fri 11 Jan 13

We have our problems - it is true. But, Rochdale Council has decided to increase council tax by 3.5% and WILL NOT hold a referendum as required. The council believes it has found a "legal loophole" in The Localism Act which means it can avoid a referendum.
The council stresses that it is possible to declare that increases for waste collection and transport can be excluded from the headline rate of council tax increase.
According to a council statement:
‘The legislation which determines how to calculate the relevant basic amount of council tax, excludes the Waste Disposal Levy and the Passenger Transport Levy.’
Newspaper reports suggest a number of councils are examining this alleged loophole.

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M M says...
5:28pm Fri 11 Jan 13

In a back water like Herefordshire, the Chief Executive and Deputy Chief Executive are paid more than the Prime Minister, while the people who pay one of the highest rates of Council Tax are receiving well below the national average wages and are now being told they have to pay even more,
THE RICH GET RICH while THE POOR GET POORER!

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courtesycall says...
5:36pm Fri 11 Jan 13

Herefordshire Council is advertising for a Digital Inclusion Officer, £26,276 - £30,011 pa. The Digital Inclusion post has two key functions in supporting change is service delivery by the use of digital technologies and secondly working with external organisations to reach people who would benefit from goiing (sic) online. The post requires project management skills, understanding of use of technologies in a community setting and track record of working with a range of partner organisations.

Presumably were it not for the need to make cuts and savings, the pay would be higher!

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megilleland says...
8:02pm Fri 11 Jan 13

Werintrouble says...
4:39pm Fri 11 Jan 13
Not only was the lowly admin clerk given a huge pay rise, but Departments were created to recognise a growing chain of command.

Herefordshire Public Services Leadership Structure
Chart showing 13 underlings under the Chief Executive of the council. Shows how the empire spawns. These 13 officers draw combined salaries of £1,093,122
https://beta.herefor
dshire.gov.uk/media/
2323734/PPS.pdf

The overall spend of Herefordshire Council is approximately £350million. Approximately £39.7million is spent on employing the non-schools workforce, with almost £35million on salaries (including national insurance and superannuation) of directly employed staff to which this policy relates. As at 31st December 2011 (the most recent data available at time of drafting) there were 1096 full-time equivalent posts across the organisation, giving an average salary of £31.9k.

Check out the council's transparency. Covers annual contracts, monthly spending, salaries and roles.
https://beta.herefor
dshire.gov.uk/transp
arency/

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Biomech says...
8:03pm Fri 11 Jan 13

I might apply lol or maybe tender a project proposal for digitising Hereford Matters :)

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herefordy says...
12:17pm Sun 13 Jan 13

I think its a fantastic idea. We can take a look at the books obviously, check out the councils expenses.i`ll have to see the wage bills of course. Full disclosure on investments and transactions is kind of mandatory in these circumstances.When the public has all of the councils information then they can decide how they want their council to be run. Then maybe we could continue this kind of practice for the future.

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PaulCa says...
12:45pm Sun 13 Jan 13

herefordy wrote:
I think its a fantastic idea. We can take a look at the books obviously, check out the councils expenses.i`ll have to see the wage bills of course. Full disclosure on investments and transactions is kind of mandatory in these circumstances.When the public has all of the councils information then they can decide how they want their council to be run. Then maybe we could continue this kind of practice for the future.

"When the public has all of the council's information, then..."

Won't happen :)

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Biomech says...
1:45pm Sun 13 Jan 13

Plus it's VERY easy to spin things.

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Herefordianindividual says...
3:58pm Sun 13 Jan 13

Everything that needs to be said has already been said several times, but it is clear the council have no actual interest in giving the people the choice. If they did then it would have been obvious to them that people couldn't make an informed decision without a single figure for how much is spent (and would therefore be saved) on each service. Scrapping the Hereford bottle bank is given the same weight as halting all major construction work (when they obviously will not save the same amount). Sure, this information can probably be found out by regular people- but most don't have the time to, so will instead have to go on hunches and prejudices. If the council really wanted this to be democratic they would have made this information easily accessible. I agree with nearly everyone else on here that cutting from the top down is the best thing to do- but also, sadly, that there is no point in suggesting this to the council directly as they will simply ignore the people, as they have so often before. The Hereford Times is the only hope the people have of making the council reconsider, give us proper information and a real, non-leading, neutral questionnaire, the results of which will be listened to and acted upon.

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GDJ says...
7:25pm Sun 13 Jan 13

I have a suggestion but I can't find it as an option.
Why not go back to having Herefordshire and Worcestershire Council - just one CEO, director for each thing etc. I assume that the original reason for splitting them was that HCC would be more responsive to local needs and wishes. Can anyone still claim that and keep a straight face?

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megilleland says...
7:44pm Sun 13 Jan 13

You can see were the council spends our money through the "Transparency" section of its website at:
https://beta.herefor
dshire.gov.uk/transp
arency/

However it's when you go through the figures each month, that matters concerning expenditure are not very clear. For October expenditure money has been paid out twice against the same invoice number on the same day. Examples are entries 708 & 709 for £42771.91 paid to Fulcrum Infrastructure Services on the 16th October 2012 and entries 175 & 255 for £57,565.05 paid to 21st Century Floors. I am not an accountant, but maybe someone can tell me why these entries would be shown like this. There are plenty of other examples on the spreadsheet.

Interesting payment each month to Visit Herefordshire for £68,000 and a payment of £730,979 to Hoople Ltd - what do Hoople do?

It's nice to see that some local businesses benefit from our council tax payments.

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Herefordcitizen says...
8:56pm Sun 13 Jan 13

If I understand correctly Hoople Ltd is the company that was created to provide the IT and payroll provision to the council and anyone else who wants to buy the services.

I cannot believe how loaded this questionnaire is. Why are certain services lumped together? I take on board Hereford common senses point. Services provided at the leisure centres are very different to the local play or film being put on.

This isn't consultation. This is poor management that will result in passing the blame on to us for the answers we give in the questionnaire. When we have poor services as a result of this survey, the council will say "you chose this option"

Appalling!!!!!

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Herefordcitizen says...
8:56pm Sun 13 Jan 13

If I understand correctly Hoople Ltd is the company that was created to provide the IT and payroll provision to the council and anyone else who wants to buy the services.

I cannot believe how loaded this questionnaire is. Why are certain services lumped together? I take on board Hereford common senses point. Services provided at the leisure centres are very different to the local play or film being put on.

This isn't consultation. This is poor management that will result in passing the blame on to us for the answers we give in the questionnaire. When we have poor services as a result of this survey, the council will say "you chose this option"

Appalling!!!!!

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Biomech says...
10:54pm Sun 13 Jan 13

With the duplicates, they have the same transaction number so I would guess that during the conversion between software and export files (such as the PDF) they are page breaks and duplicates of the same line not repeated transactions... I'm guessing that you'll find them all on similar line increments.

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megilleland says...
11:29pm Sun 13 Jan 13

Why is the same amount paid on the 3rd October and the same again on the 5th October?

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megilleland says...
11:31pm Sun 13 Jan 13

And included in the overall totalled expenditure figure of £8,139,716.27

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TwoWheelsGood says...
12:15pm Mon 14 Jan 13

"£57,565.05 paid to 21st Century Floors". They are a Gloucs flooring company. That’s a lot of carpet. Was it necessary in these straightened times? Should we not have been asked first?

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littlewhitebull says...
12:47pm Mon 14 Jan 13

TwoWheelsGood is correct about "straightened times", but when it comes to our council "cash-strapped" and other phrases only apply to how they spend money on services, etc. for the community. It does NOT apply to how they treat themselves, or when it comes to what might be termed their pet projects. After all, HERE YOU CAN - and they do!
When I asked the council why they were still spending £12,000+ on bottled water for "members' meetings" - I was informed that a huge cut had been made, as some years previously the amount per annum was £70,000+.
Personally, I find that Welsh Water poured from my tap into a glass is quite refreshing.

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Werintrouble says...
1:13pm Mon 14 Jan 13

I have a friend who works within the Council bubble and what goes on is really odd and out of step with the private sector. They can actually come to work in the morning and once they've worked during their 'must be there' hours, they then go home and are allowed to work from home. They dress this up as cutting down on carbon emissions and cost savings.
Those that go home simply do the shopping and fire off a few emails that simply go to evidence that they've done something whilst out of the office at home.

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GDJ says...
1:34pm Mon 14 Jan 13

TwoWheelsGood wrote:
"£57,565.05 paid to 21st Century Floors". They are a Gloucs flooring company. That’s a lot of carpet. Was it necessary in these straightened times? Should we not have been asked first?

You need a big carpet if you have a lot to sweep under it.

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courtesycall says...
1:37pm Mon 14 Jan 13

GDJ wrote:

TwoWheelsGood wrote:
"£57,565.05 paid to 21st Century Floors". They are a Gloucs flooring company. That’s a lot of carpet. Was it necessary in these straightened times? Should we not have been asked first?
You need a big carpet if you have a lot to sweep under it.

"£57,565.05 paid to 21st Century Floors". They are a Gloucs flooring company. That’s a lot of carpet. "

It's not only a lot of carpet, it's also to a Gloucs company. Surely a Herefordshire company could've been asked to supply the carpet, or is Hfds more expensive?

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Biomech says...
1:50pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Probably isn't a carpet shop in Hereford ;P
/sarcasm

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TwoWheelsGood says...
3:36pm Mon 14 Jan 13

"Hoople Ltd is a company influenced by Herefordshire Council, NHS Herefordshire and Wye Valley NHS Trust" it says on the front page of their underwhelming website. It is headed by Mike Dearing, who left Bucks County Council after criticism for sanctioning a £3.7m refurb of council officers and for employing too many managers, who were then paid off to the tune of £1.2m. Mr Dearing was appointed as the Deputy Chief Executive of Herefordshire Council after leaving Bucks County Council. Mr Dearing followed suit shortly afterwards. If the Council are putting vast sums of money into Hoople (to provide corporate and business support services to 180 different organisations including the local authority, NHS organisations, schools, GP practices, third sector and private companies) why does it then need to employ a 'Digital Inclusion Officer' which in common sense parlance means 'teach your granny to send an email'. Just more jobs for the boys? Is it any wonder we don't believe a word our Council says? Stop it Jarvis, and stop it now, please.

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TwoWheelsGood says...
3:41pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Sorry, disregard that last post - here is the correct version - "Hoople Ltd is a company influenced by Herefordshire Council, NHS Herefordshire and Wye Valley NHS Trust" it says on the front page of their underwhelming website. It is headed by Mike Dearing, who left Bucks County Council after criticism for sanctioning a £3.7m refurb of council officers and for employing too many managers, who were then paid off to the tune of £1.2m.

Mr Dean Taylor was appointed as the Deputy Chief Executive of Herefordshire Council after leaving Bucks County Council in 2010 and Mr Dearing followed him shortly afterwards. If the Council are putting vast sums of money into Hoople (to provide corporate and business support services to 180 different organisations including the local authority, NHS organisations, schools, GP practices, third sector and private companies) why does it then need to employ a 'Digital Inclusion Officer' which in common sense parlance means 'teach your granny to send an email'. Just more jobs for the boys? Stop it Jarvis, and stop it now, please.

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bobby47 says...
3:54pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Hello TwoWheels.

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dippyhippy says...
4:38pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Well,most of us seem to be back after our festive break/breakdown !! Just Lukio to appear now??

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bobby47 says...
4:54pm Mon 14 Jan 13

And Ubique and Clarkester.

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courtesycall says...
4:55pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Biomech wrote:
Probably isn't a carpet shop in Hereford ;P
/sarcasm

It doesn't have to be in Hereford. A random Google search, there about 15 carpet shops in Herefordshire.

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dippyhippy says...
5:06pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Yes,Bobby,They are missing,just quickly flipped through the other threads and there is no sign of them,bet they are reading this though,so a Happy New Year to you too!

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courtesycall says...
5:17pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Having consulted a cross-section of more knowledgeable people, I gather Cllr Jarvis's invitation is all about wanting the public's okay to axe and cut services that the council would love to save money on were it not for the possibility some people would object.

The services that people would like money to be saved on aren't on the table because the council cannot afford for its employees, managers, executives to be seen as doing very little for their wages. Expenses for councillors have to be untouched because councillors have the hard job of clearing up after all the mistakes and overspending of the present and previous administrations.

It's not an "unprecedented consultation". Whenever there's an election, we're urged to vote for people that promise the earth for the people of Herefordshire. It's in the signs. "You can" is short for 'you can vote if you like, but it won't make any difference'.

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bobby47 says...
5:38pm Mon 14 Jan 13

This collection we call our Council Leadership must be truly extraordinary incompetent bungling idiots.
I mean, who else or where else would you find a bunch of parasitic free loaders spending near on 60k on carpets that they purchased in a neighbouring economy and consequently ignoring the worth of your own economy.
I mean we have money bloody flying out of here on a daily bloody basis. What with Consultancy Fees, vast sums of money being directed to other areas within the EU and the raft of bloody gimmicks that make us all want to hurl phlegm, it makes you want to scream, 'Clear Off Jarvis and leave us be!'
How much more do we have to protest before our prayers are answered?
It surely can't go on can it?
We deserve a break and some relief to this deluded and chaotic Council Leadership.
As my dear friend TWG has pleaded, 'Stop it Jarvis and Stop it now'.
if Jarvis would just clear off for a fortnight and leave us be that would be something for us all to look forward to.
It's astonishing how thick skinned this bunch are!
I mean, look at us all. From time to time we all write things that hurt oneanother and what do we do?
we take offence and go quiet or tone our views down. That's a sensible and sane response.
This bloody lot just carry on spoon feeding us drivel and tripe as we hurtle toward the edge of ruin.
This thread of news asks, 'How do we save money?'.
My answer? ' These tics on our flesh have gotta be dug out and got rid of or else we are bloody doomed!
My warmest regards to all.

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WYSIATI says...
6:12pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Greetings to King Bobby tic control and local carpets - local carpets with no tics I say.

If you want to see something chilling look at the opening few paragraphs of the consultation -

http://www.herefords
hire.gov.uk/communit
y_and_living/62347.a
sp

Savings of £10M (additional) this year, £13M more each year from 2014 to 2016.

What we need to see is what are the statutory services the council has to provide and what they cost now and what they will cost in future. Everything else appears to be optional.

I look at the corporate plan -

http://www.herefords
hire.gov.uk/docs/Cou
ncilandDemocracy/Cor
porate_Plan_2013_-_2
015.pdf

I have to say that appears to be truly dreadful - I assume that the detail of what is actually going to be done must be somewhere else cos it's not in there. This reads far too much like the tosh that spills out of the private sector as they soft soap you ahead of selling you stuff you don't need.

All good fun to rant about overpaid executives and bottled water but getting rid of all the bottles (I'll bet there are none) and all the executives won't save a tenth of what needs to be saved.

I see that 281 jobs have been cut already - there was a comment above that the workforce was 1000+ - that's a huge cut already. You don't see too many companies taking that sort of hit and making a go of it - you do see a lot folding - but then they don't have statutory responsibilities do they.

Great chance for the Times to really do some research and show us where the money comes from, what's ring fenced and what it's spent on (and what part of that is statutory and cannot not be done). Steer clear of the temptation to go for sensationalism and get some facts.

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dippyhippy says...
6:35pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Statutory services are also being looked at - they may"not be delivered in the same way". Council briefing to staff before christmas, nothing is safe.

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wyesider says...
8:20pm Mon 14 Jan 13

The transparency link on the council's webiste states that it employs 1400 people. According to the salary chart there are 23 senior executives earning a total of almost £1.9 million. Cutting £10 million is not easy - and certainly not without pain. But cutting back on all the items outlined by posters - e.g. senior executives, silly Here You Can signs, expensive websites, expensive rebranding, expensive carpets, bottled water, golden handshakes, free shopping bags, cutting councillors allowances/expenses, etc., etc, can make a vast difference when all added together.
We all do this to make ends meet at home, and our council must do the same and cut their cloth accordingly.
Every little helps - to quote a well known company's slogan.
Passing the buck to the people cuts to suggest is not a new idea - it is going on throughout the UK.

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TwoWheelsGood says...
8:54pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Statutory services includes Planning - one of the worst run and performing departments in the Council. It takes over 4 weeks now just to get an application registered - but only 2 days for them to bank the cheque for the large fee they take. Neighbouring Councils only take a day or two register. The sooner it is privatised the better.

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probono says...
10:30pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Done my online consultation and asked for the subject of Councillors taking a reduciton in allowances and expenses to be put to Full Council. Bet that won't happen !
Perhaps no more Consultant friends at huge fees for reports that never see the light of day and contracts which cannot be tracked through either FOI or a procruemnet process. Do the Councillors actually know what is going on under their noses and behind their backs? pressure is being put on front livne service workers in essential services to take redundancy by their managers. Lets hope they don't make the FOI officer redundant or we will never find our what is going on especially as he seems to be in a department of one now. BTW has Herefordshire Council ever appeared in Provate Eye's Rotten Boroughs feature ? If not, why not ?

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Ubique5740 says...
10:59pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Apologies for being late - I've been ubique !
Do not think there is much more to say, there are some very well researched posts - thanks for taking the time to update us lesser mortals.
The nightmare continues.
A very happy and healthy 2013 to you all.

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TwoWheelsGood says...
10:59pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Councillors probably have a fair idea of what's going on, but choose not to put their head above the parapet. Life is much cosier that way. I'm reminded of the Julie Holmes IT scandal from 2007 which led to the Crookall Report, now removed from the Council's website and history quietly rewritten. Literally millions of pounds disappeared and no one brought to book, just large pay-offs and non-disclosure agreements. I doubt much has changed. The sordid and shocking details are here, but, be warned, its not for the feint hearted. http://insideherefor
dict.blogspot.co.uk. This, and many similar scandals, some yet to emerge, is why the Council are in the mess they're in. No amount of cynical manipulation by the Cabinet can ultimately hide the facts. Is everything REALLY on the table Cllr Jarvis?

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bobby47 says...
11:31pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Hello Ubique. Horse back in the stable my good friend?
Its like bloody Groundhog Day aint it.

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Ubique5740 says...
7:42am Tue 15 Jan 13

Bobby47 , had a smoke signal from my lovely lady, told me that you had returned to your rightful place so I saddled up and here I am.
Some of the post make very sad reading.
Just hope that the decision makers at HCC read these posts and reaction to them or have the balls to make a comment on them.

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courtesycall says...
9:16am Tue 15 Jan 13

Whilst chucking out a pile of unread 'Herefordshire Matters' I reckon the council has to continuing publishing it in order to meet its recycling targets.

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GDJ says...
10:56am Tue 15 Jan 13

probono wrote:
Done my online consultation and asked for the subject of Councillors taking a reduciton in allowances and expenses to be put to Full Council. Bet that won't happen ! Perhaps no more Consultant friends at huge fees for reports that never see the light of day and contracts which cannot be tracked through either FOI or a procruemnet process. Do the Councillors actually know what is going on under their noses and behind their backs? pressure is being put on front livne service workers in essential services to take redundancy by their managers. Lets hope they don't make the FOI officer redundant or we will never find our what is going on especially as he seems to be in a department of one now. BTW has Herefordshire Council ever appeared in Provate Eye's Rotten Boroughs feature ? If not, why not ?

Someone, maybe the HT, should ask the FoI officer if he has enough power to force officers/managers to release documents. And what are the consequences if he is misled about documents or denied access to them. The answer would say a lot about how seriously the council takes `transparency'

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fmrbill says...
1:10pm Tue 15 Jan 13

well guys what more can I say to add to this NOTHING i agree with it all, ref magazines, water,away days etc etc. BUT I have now recieved my paper consulation document from the paper, and of course nowhere on that does the council give us those options as to how to advise them to save money. I wonder why cos they have no intention to do so, but blame us when they say we voted to cut back on the eldery,vunerable etc etc.We must stick together until the next election and vote these allegded mindless, so called helpful, money grabbing persons ( parasites, as kingbobby would say) OUT

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Biomech says...
1:32pm Tue 15 Jan 13

Does anyone know who I might contact in order to offer a proposal for a digital Hereford Matters? :D

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Clarkester says...
1:35pm Tue 15 Jan 13

Sorry Bobby47 and DippyHippy.
I'm back.
I have been keeping up to date, but am at a loss as to what to say to be honest.
Apart from the above.
And that, and this.
It's a great consultation though, I had a go at it and everything...

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bobby47 says...
2:54pm Tue 15 Jan 13

Hello Clarkester, you'll see that there are a fair few new posters on here which, in many ways helps us tired worn out Posters. New Blood and all that.
It'd be great if Lukio would emerge from his burrow but I think he's just ground down by it all. I know it knackers me up ranting and raving.
I think TWG has it right by pacing himself.
Anyway, welcome home.

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brianjmee says...
7:09am Wed 16 Jan 13

Hereford Council are now in a position that was forecast some years ago.
Unfortunately with the Council having such a one party (Conservative) dominance all pleas by the Independents to stop their spending have been ignored. Thus the pathetic plea by Mr Jarvis , what a sham ! So paying many millions of pounds for the Rockfield site and then leaving it empty until 2014 for a road we can't afford and don't need. Being held to ransome for £500k (wait for the next demand to come ) by the cattle market developers against all advice that the town centre and high street retailing is dying plus demolishing a perfectly good council office, Garrick House, comes as no surprise to many of us.
Please, all voters remember how incompetent they are when time comes to again vote. Credit must go to the independents. It's Our County, Liberals etc who have spoken out but have been unable to stop the voice of big business being heard over the ordinary rate payer. Think on Hereford-we have some time to go before our taxes are used for the benefit of our citizens instead of council 'vanity' projects. Brace yourselves for even more ludicrous spending decisions made by the Conservative dominated Council of Hereford. They are unable to admit they are making the wrong decisions when spending our money. Thus the coffers are empty - what a surprise!

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wyesider says...
11:07am Wed 16 Jan 13

Well, at least if councillors like our Mr Jarvis are listening they will have a good idea about how to cut in quite a few areas, and realise how angry taxpayers are feeling about how their money is spent. Littlewhitebull mentioned that he/she thought this thread would produce a huge response - not far wrong there!
However, and forgive me for saying this, I think the whole exercise is just a ruse by Mr Jarvis. Knowing our council, the cuts have already been decided upon behind closed doors.
I really hope I am proved wrong.

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bobby47 says...
11:09am Wed 16 Jan 13

Brian, Bloody Hell! Brilliant Post. Well said my friend.
Welcome to our group. Impressive debut.
My warmest regards to you.

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steveinleo says...
12:30pm Wed 16 Jan 13

Perhaps the council should actually get rid of their top table of fat cats who collectively would raise the money needed by resigning.

If they have to resort to asking us where to make the cuts to survive, then clearly they are incapable of doing their job and are looking to us to save them.

MP's and council cronies are no more than money grabbing bar stewards who only work to line their own pockets.

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Biomech says...
12:49pm Wed 16 Jan 13

I just sent an email to the council and got this automated reply;

"Thank you for your email. It has been received and, where appropriate, we will respond within 10 working days. If it is likely to take longer than that we will advise you."

10 Days! lol. If I ran my business like that, I'd have no clients left.

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dippyhippy says...
2:00pm Wed 16 Jan 13

Is it too simplistic to think that during better times,the council could have"put a little away" for a rainy day.We are all urged,as individuals ,not to take on un-necessary debt,to save for the future,to take personal responsibility,etc. etc.Simple,basic principles.Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp??

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TwoWheelsGood says...
2:16pm Wed 16 Jan 13

brianjmee - splendid post, right on the money - and if its good enough for bobby47 then you're well in. You're right, there's plenty more money to be wasted before the next elections and by jove, waste it they will. I see over on the WIHAHC facebook site, there's an emerging story of another departmental melt down similar to the ICT scandal that engulfed the Council in 2008 and which cost ratepayers millions of pounds.

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dippyhippy says...
2:42pm Wed 16 Jan 13

Jesus! Its unbelievable! Lessons are never learnt.At what point will we as a county go bankrupt - it can't be that far away now.

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bobby47 says...
3:07pm Wed 16 Jan 13

Dippy, The hierarchy within this unholy bloody Council Leadership would dismiss your last but one Posting as a to simplistic approach to an economic question.
If any person around their table even uttered your proposition they'd be vilified and reduced to being the subject of ridicule.
Then after destroying their colleague who came up with your proposition, they'd go home, pull up the bloody chair and mutter, 'That fool was right. I couldn't bring myself to agree'.
That Dippy is our problem! You, in a very simple and straightforward way have captured everything that has lead us to our present predicament.
Nobody has dared to say what all knew to be bloody obvious. Money spent with no thought for the future or the bloody consequences.
Now? We are where we bloody are and we are expected to come up with the answer.
I promise one thing. The cuts they need to make? It'll be done but much to much to late. They will not trim their fat bloated pointless job tree until we are sailing into the bloody Lugg.
There's some guy out there, he works for the Council. Hes a good man who picks his broom up everyday and diligently does his job and cleans our streets for us to live a better life. He's probably on 15k a year and he does his very best day in day out and he enjoys providing you, me and everyone else the best he can give.
But soon, that same guy is going to get called into the Managers Office. He'll be greeted by a gaggle of upper and middle Managers, Supervisors and Team Leaders and they'll tell him, 'that's it my good man. Your job has gone'.
All in the name of bloody cuts and still that pointless Management Tree will remain until its much to late.
We are bloody doomed and anyone who disagrees with me is a ninny as far as Im concerned.

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Biomech says...
3:18pm Wed 16 Jan 13

If anyone hasn't noticed - Blockbuster are now going into administration too. So that will be yet another loss to the city.

What I'd like to know is, what happens if someone like Next or Debenhams go into admin? You know, considering they are the big names touted around OLM.

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bobby47 says...
3:43pm Wed 16 Jan 13

It'll be bloody food shops soon and then God help us.
Sweet Loving Jesus it gets worse as each bloody day passes.
If ever any of the emerging East European shops start to fold then that will signal the end of the whole bundle of joy that is, the life and times of Hereford.
We need a break! We need to strike Gold instead of Nickel. We need Sting and the good people of Ethiopia to hold a concert for us.

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Biomech says...
4:39pm Wed 16 Jan 13

The other factor that people forget is that when these shops go bust, it has a deterimental effect on the supply chain. Think of how much the logistics companies and suppliers for places like Comet, HMV, are now loosing. Which means they have to make cutbacks and increase there supply costs - which means the shops that are left have to pay more - John Lewis, Currys, even online retailers - which means they go out of business.

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TwoWheelsGood says...
5:00pm Wed 16 Jan 13

bobby47 - I know that good man with a broom - he lives near to me. Chatting to him recently, he'd been sent on an expensive day-away course by Amey to teach him how to put cones out on a motorway. His language was choice. He'll never put out cones on a motorway. His broom has never seen a motorway, nor does it want to. That course was probably charged back to the Council at £500 or more - for what? So his manager and his manager and his upper and middle managers and his Supervisor and his Team Leader can all tick their boxes and tell him, 'you're now a qualified cone operative' and go home thinking they've done a good days work. Fiddle while Rome burns? Not even Sting can save us.

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bobby47 says...
5:52pm Wed 16 Jan 13

TWG, it's so bloody depressing. The tragedy is my dear friend, those within the Council bubble will view us as a bunch of moaners who are intent upon undermining them. They, within that bloody accursed bubble do not see the madness of this. To them, it's just normal and a part of their everyday lives.
A course for this. A course for that and a further opportunity to get onto the next band of your pay scale doing the same job but with a higher reward.
How on earth did we arrive at this point that allowed the operationally lightweight dead heads, loaded up with degree's, business speak, buzz words and blue sky thinking to have this strangle hold on our lives?

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TwoWheelsGood says...
9:17am Thu 17 Jan 13

We're getting somewhere - HT have linked this page and its 100 comments back to a story on the front page - bobby47, start polishing that crown! You call it spot on in your last post - if we say it often enough, perhaps people will beginning to listen.

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GDJ says...
9:18am Thu 17 Jan 13

I see that HCC are now advertising for two property lawyers/solicitors to help deal with property acquisitions and disposals within the law.

Is this a very belated recognition that the current crew are completely out of their depth in dealing with the Old Cattle Market situation, or just a preparation for all the property that is to be sold off?
(Bet they won't sell Brockington - it is important for highly paid people to have an office and car park that befits their status - heaven forfend that they use cheaper space on an industrial estate).

My suggestion to HCC is that they recruit two new Assistant Directors. I wonder if they will follow my advice.

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richybeaver says...
11:56am Thu 17 Jan 13

I am confident that all those who author these posts would be just as effective at running local services as the current administration, with an equivalent outcome.

Let's not forget that real people are trying their best to offer day-to-day stuff that goes on whatever the management.

Glib generalisations and jokey put downs are a life sapping way of undermining confidence.

Local elections are always happening - if you want change then get off your backsides and do something about it.

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Biomech says...
1:02pm Thu 17 Jan 13

Funny that. Because my former employers wouldn't listen to my ideas, suggestions and fixes. They are now going under. Subsequently, I left to start my own company - which is doing very well right now.

The only reason some of us might fail in council is for the same reason - being held back and blocked by the morons further up the chain whose interest lies solely in themselves.

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WYSIATI says...
1:06pm Thu 17 Jan 13

richybeaver - you are right of course but you should never underestimate how good hindsight is and that it takes a bit of thought and imagination to realise that no one - really no one - makes perfect decisions all the time.

GDJ - you're arguing for more management - you don't hear that very often on here - what's the logic?

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WYSIATI says...
1:21pm Thu 17 Jan 13

Biomech - I'm glad to hear business is good.

I think the point is that some people are very good, some businesses work well, some don't. A lot of it is luck and circumstances and some of it is people (though people don't remember the luck).

Most people and most organisations are somewhere in the middle - some stuff goes well some goes badly - expecting anything else doesn't make any sense.

What's certainly true is that the way people perceive an individual or organisation is coloured by the coverage - and if it's relentlessly negative that colours views. Currently there is nothing that the Council can do that would get a positive reception from some people.

If we want good people to keep working or join public service we aren't likely to get them by demonising those there now, hounding them out, crying out for punitive pay cuts - why would anyone want to opt for that?

Maybe get those applications in for Goldman Sachs - average pay (for all staff) up $30000 last year to $400000 now.

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Biomech says...
1:41pm Thu 17 Jan 13

I see nothing wrong with a £200,000/yr paycheck, if the company is making £20bn in profit.

What gets me more than anything is when something is obvious, when something is clearly broke, why not fix it? I've said to people in the past "do X and you'll make 10% more profit" and they don't. To me, that's just stupid.

The potholes are a great example. Spend £100 per pothole that has to be refilled after 2 weeks, or spend £300 per hole that will last 2 years.

£100 looks good on paper, and that's the problem. The same applies to the police. You can bust 100 kids playing in the street or you can bust 2 drug dealers. What looks better on paper? Of course, it's we made/solved, "100 arrests/crimes".

I don't care about spin and biased statistics. I have no interest in politics. I'm a guy on the street and what I see is failure.

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TwoWheelsGood says...
1:48pm Thu 17 Jan 13

ref GDJ's post about the council advertising for property lawyers - this comes in the wake of the FOI disclosure, reported over on WIHAHC, that the council paid £257k -!! - for legal advice on the OLM last November. It doesn't take many of those sort of bills to save £10m. These are all the 'hidden' costs of the OLM and any capital project the council deals with - the private sector know they can rob them blind and no one will say anything.

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VWVWVW says...
2:14pm Thu 17 Jan 13

I've got a problem with this. Untill I know just where money is spent, how can I suggest where savings can be made? Obvious waste like stupid signs, Hereford doesn't Matters cheap and dirty repairs are easy to see. How much property does the council own? What is it used for? How often is it used and who by? What are the outgoings/income for them? I have neither the wit or time to sift through mountains of links etc. Just want a list please,

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GDJ says...
3:42pm Thu 17 Jan 13

WYSIATI wrote:
richybeaver - you are right of course but you should never underestimate how good hindsight is and that it takes a bit of thought and imagination to realise that no one - really no one - makes perfect decisions all the time. GDJ - you're arguing for more management - you don't hear that very often on here - what's the logic?

Sorry WYSIATI, my sarcasm probably didn't come through stongly enough. I was referring to a rumour that I heard. I don't have the full facts but maybe the HT could ask some questions?

And Richybeaver - I'm sure no-one posting here has anything but admiration and sympathy for the ordinary low paid carers, cleaners, social workers, teaching assistants etc who work in difficult circumstances directly with the public including the vulnerable. I'm sure that people posting comments here would want a far higher proportion of council tax to go towards what those people do. There is no intention to undermine them or their morale.

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WYSIATI says...
4:15pm Thu 17 Jan 13

Anyone care to draw up a structure that has no management at all - I think that's what's being asked for

We can't do without the teaching assistants, carers and people clearing out the ditches but I've never yet seen any group of teaching assistants organise and run a school

It's time we got beyond the throw them all out and only have volunteers on the council isn't it?

And Biomech - that's the first time I've heard someone stand up for the bankers in a long time - I thought the banks were right there in causing the sub-prime disaster, profiteering from the fallout and precipitating the biggest economic crash in 100 years which led directly to the decimation of services in Herefordshire council - who made $6bn profit in 2011 and pay their staff $13bn and wanted to defer this years bonuses so the could pay less tax. And we all sit here and shout about the council?!

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Biomech says...
5:57pm Thu 17 Jan 13

Oh sorry! Yes I forgot to continue that train of thought - my bad.

I meant to add that I do have a problem with people who are grossly over paid for failing. That, to me, is also insanity. Fail your targets, loose the company/institution money and be rewarded for it!?!??!. Likewise the people that walk into a job and then walk out 4 weeks later with a £52 million pound payout.

If someone is paid £200k of a £60bn profit company for making that money etc, that's fine. It's when they fail and still get the bonus that urks me.

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